Transcription by Kite (@mossyzinc), Janis (@janianovie), Evie (@doubleflutz), Tilda (@tequilda), Kat (@kattwts), Lynn (@lynnneposts), and Clara (@daejangie)
Niamh: You're In The Loop. We're here to discuss the ups, downs, and sideways of figure skating, and maybe give you +5 GOE along the way. Let's introduce this week's hosts. Hi, I'm Niamh, and I'm still recovering from the emotional trauma that was IDF. You can find me on Twitter @rivrdance.
Evie: Hey, I'm Evie, and I'm glad for the return of Cup of China just so I get a week where I don't need to wake up incredibly early or stay up extremely late for once. You can find me on Twitter @doubleflutz.
Kite: Hi there, I'm Kite, and I'm the only one on this episode without an interesting accent. You can find me on Twitter @mossyzinc.
Evie: Alright, guys. So we're already halfway through the Grand Prix. This is our second episode.
Niamh: Ooh, that's scary.
Evie: Terrifying. The season is going too fast already and we're gonna be talking about the third and fourth competition, Internationaux de France in Grenoble and then Cup of China, surprisingly in Chongqing this year. I'm so used to seeing that one rink in Beijing that I was just surprised at how big the Cup of China arena was this year.
Niamh: It was so big, especially compared to the IDF rink.
Evie: Which is kind of rinky-dinky tiny with the hockey boards on one side. And then you've got this giant-ass rink in China, which was mostly full [Niamh: Yeah.] for a lot of the events. And they went all out with the crazy theatrics - like they had the floating lights.
Niamh: I thought IDF spent all their budget on light shows until I saw Cup of China.
Kite: The fake fires at IDF. Excuse you, Niamh.
Niamh: They weren't even fake fires. They were, like, fabric that came up.
Evie: They reminded me of wacky wobbly inflatable arm men outside of used car dealerships.
Niamh: I don't know if you could see on the stream, but we had one right in front of us and once the cameras panned off the fake fire things, they would just droop down slowly.
Evie: Oh, no. The spark stuff last year-
Niamh: Last year they burned the ice! When the fake fire things came out we were like, "Oh, they might have actual medals this year," because obviously, they spent the budget on the medals.
Evie: Everyone was talking about how Cup of China's always cursed every single year, and how Grand Prix Helsinki should just say. But I'm like, "I mean, it wasn't that cursed of an event."
Niamh: Yeah. Replace IDF with Grand Prix Helsinki.
Evie: Honestly. But no one got food poisoning this year, so honestly, it's not bad. Cup of China was actually not as cursed. It was chaotic.
Niamh: Yeah, but it wasn't cursed.
Evie: We're gonna start off talking about both the competitions, going first into the Pairs.
Kite: At IDF, in first place, we had Anastasia Mishina and Alexander Galliamov of Russia, in second, we had Daria Pavliuchenko and Denis Khodykin of Russia, and then in third, we had Haven Denney and Brandon Frazier of the US. And then at Cup of China, we had Sui Wenjing and Han Cong of China in first, Peng Chen and Jin Yang of China in second, and Liubov Ilyushechkina and Charlie Bilodeau of Canada in third.
Evie: There were some kind of interesting fields at both of these competitions for pretty different reasons. At IDF, we had pretty much no clear standout winners from the get-go, because, obviously, Vanessa James and Morgan Cipres aren't competing on the Grand Prix year. And then we also had [Natalia] Zabiiako and [Alexander] Enbert who withdrew as well. There were a couple of teams that could potentially get on the podium, but we weren't really sure who was going to get up there. And then at Cup of China, there was a much -- [Kite laughs] there were definitely some standouts. There was a much deeper field on the top side of things. It was interesting in comparison to look at these two very different events.
Kite: I think the theme of IDF is that Russian Pairs continue to be dominant, which is surprising to exactly nobody at this point. [Evie: Yeah] It was really interesting that the 2018 and 2019 Junior World Champions went 1-2 at IDF.
Evie: Especially because we haven't really seen them compete together at all on the international level. It's very weird to see that kind of matchup, like, "Oh yeah, here are the Junior World Champions from 2018 versus the ones from 2019. Who will come out on top?" This is my boxing match voice. [Hosts laugh]
Niamh: It's like the Russian ladies.
Kite: Well, spoiler alert, the 2019 Junior Worlds Champions came out on top this time.
Evie: This time. But both of the teams were really, really strong and actually looking at both of them in comparison to what we saw last season, I can see improvements in both teams, which is really, really good to see. Obviously, Pavliuchenko and Khodykin had a bit of an advantage going in just because they have been Senior for longer, and they made the Final last year as well, and so they have that little bit of an edge going into the event. Especially with Mishina and Galliamov, when I was watching them, I was surprised by the fact that - the one thing I had a problem with their skating last season was the fact that their lifts, while the positions they had were really cool, weren't covering as much ice and they weren't as fast as some of the other Junior teams. I really appreciate that, watching them here at IDF, it seems like they've really been working on that in the off-season. They've realized that is a thing that they need to improve on when they're making that leap from Junior to Senior. While they're still not perfect, there is a marked difference in their speed and ice coverage on those lifts. I really appreciate that. Woohoo for improvement, we like this.
Kite: I wish they would work on their speed a little bit more because especially when they're skating up against a team like Pavliuchenko and Khodykin, it's really obvious that they're not getting as much ice coverage as they probably should be. It does come off as a little bit clunky on camera because they're skating to very dramatic music in the Free Skate and their movements are a couple of beats behind what the music is portraying.
Evie: I really wish that they would give Mishina and Galliamov more fun programs, just maybe something a little bit more modern. The Short Program, “Je Suis Malade,” is so downbeat and serious and I don't think it works for them as a team. Especially looking at their “Party Like a Russian” Short Program from last season and the season before that, it was fun, it was upbeat, they were emoting, and here it's just like, "Yes, we are depressed because we are sick."
Niamh: Listen, however, I will jam to anyone that does Je Suis Malade. [Evie: Valid] No matter how good the program is.
Kite: When they already have some places to improve on with speed, skating to something like “Je Suis Malade” just really highlights the fact they don't get a lot of ice coverage, they're not a very fast team. At least on camera, it came across as Pavliuchenko and Khodykin having definitely the superior speed across the ice and their movements generally being a lot more fluid and easy, which makes sense because they've been in Seniors longer. This is their second season, like Evie said, they've already made the Grand Prix Final. They know how to compete as Seniors, where I think Mishina and Galliamov are still getting there as a team and growth-wise.
Evie: And I think that Daria, her facial expression and the way she's emoting to the music, especially in the Short Program, has gotten a lot better in comparison to last season. Last season, they left me feeling a little bit cold in their interpretation of their programs. The Free for this season for them doesn't really lend itself to that, considering it's “Tron.” It's quite intense. Although I will keep laughing at the fact that they used the really long clip of the Jeff Bridges voiceover from that movie for their Free Skate. I was watching it and I was like, "This is solidly nearly a minute of Jeff Bridges talking about the grid from “Tron” and one, I love it, but two, I'm confused." [Hosts laugh] There's so much voiceover in this program!
Niamh: So many voiceovers at IDF.
Evie: And of course at Cup of China, the main thing that everyone was waiting for was the return of Sui and Han. Ahhhh!
Kite: Sui and Han at back! They didn't skate in any Challengers or Senior Bs earlier this season. They pulled out of Shanghai Trophy -- they were supposed to be there, and then because Wenjing's ankle was still not feeling 100%, they decided not to risk it and so this is their season debut and they still came within less than a point of the world record in the Short Program, which was set by [Evgenia] Tarasova and [Vladimir] Morozov last season. The program, its first outing, it's not really in its top form yet. There's still some polish to be added to it, but that is a huge score, getting 80+ in your debut.
Evie: They're here to show us that they are the class of the field. As soon as you watch them, especially at the start of the Short Program, you can't take your eyes off them. It's like, "Yes, look at us. We are the best pairs team in the field currently." And I wholeheartedly agree with them because holy crap, this Short Program slaps! I love it so much.
Niamh: Especially because James and Cipres are sitting out for the majority of the season. Although Sui and Han, for me, are the better team, James and Cipres were one of their main competitors last season. Now that they're sitting out, it's even more obvious that Sui and Han are the top of the field.
Evie: And especially since we've seen Tarasova and Morozov have problems, both at Skate Canada and at US Classic, it's just like, Sui and Han have the opportunity, if they do well at their next assignment, obviously, and make it to the Final -- they've never won a Senior Grand Prix Final before.
Kite: That's so crazy to me.
Evie: I know, because they've been competing in Seniors for so long and they've made it to the Final so many times but they've never won it, and I'm just like, "This needs to change. This season is the season."
Kite: With some other top pairs sitting out this season, I don't think Sui and Han really have much competition, if any, to be honest. None of the other teams can really match what they do technically and component-wise. They're far and away the most well-rounded team in the world, and I think if they can stay healthy this season, they stand a very, very good shot for going undefeated, which would be huge for them going into the pre-Olympic season.
Evie: Yeah, especially because it's a home Olympics for them. I'm just so glad they went back to a jazzy kind of style for their Short Program because “Blues for Klook” is one of my favorite programs of theirs. And even though this one isn't quite as good, at least not yet, I see a lot of potential there. Especially Wenjing's expression and performance throughout that whole program, how she's so playful in the way that she looks, it's so great. I love her so much. And they're recycling their Free from last season as well, “Rain In Your Black Eyes,” which I was kind of hesitant about, honestly, when I heard they were going to recycle, because Worlds was just such a moment for them. But here, the interpretation, to me, felt a lot more joyous and happy. I think it might've just been skating in front of such a big receptive home crowd that it made them go the extra mile, like the happiness meter was turned all the way up. [Hosts laugh] It was so good.
Niamh: Something about it felt more natural to me.
Kite: It makes sense to me, because it is such a beautifully choreographed program. It really is a piece of art, and they only got to show it twice last season. I'm not really sure I would even count Four Continents. Obviously they competed it there, but it was literally their first time running through it, all the way through. They only got to show it once when they were both in a condition to be skating it to their full potential, so I'm really excited to see them give this program the time that it deserves on the world stage, because it is so beautiful and it's iconic, but I think that's not going to detract from what they do with it this season.
Evie: Another standout team for me at Cup of China was the North Korean pair, Tae Ok Ryom and Ju Sik Kim, because they're one of my favorite teams and I was really excited to see them on the Grand Prix. But I'm so upset because they ditched their “Malaguena” Short Program that they did at Nebelhorn [Trophy], and I loved that program. I was so excited to see a tango from them, and then they ditched it, and I was like, "Ugh!"
Niamh: I was so disappointed because the IDF website had listed them as James and Cipres' replacements, so I think it must have been just a mistake of them being at Cup of China this week, but I was so disappointed when they were taken off the website. I was like, "I want to see them!"
Evie: I'm just happy that they've got new programs. That's the one thing I wanted from them considering they've recycled that Short Program and Free Skate for three seasons. I'm just like, "Yes!"
Niamh: You know what, if it works, it works.
Evie: If it works, it works. But there's something to be said for three seasons of the exact same Short Program, the exact same Free Skate. I got very bored of it by the end of last season. I love them and those programs are pretty great, but I was just like, "I have seen this too many times." And now they've got new ones, and I think probably their Free Skate is the best program they've ever had, period. It builds so nicely, especially towards the end when the music becomes a lot more triumphant and they've already landed the big elements, they can focus solely on performing to the music, and it works so well for them. Although it looked like Ju Sik injured his arm after the Free Skate. He was holding his shoulder as he was going off the ice. I'm really hoping he didn't strain himself or anything, because he looked like he was in some pain. But also, they're doing a throw triple Lutz now.
Niamh: When did that happen?
Evie: I don't know, because they weren't doing that last season to my knowledge. They were doing throw sals and loops. I don't think they were doing any toe jumps in throws, but go them, I guess. Get that base value.
Kite: Exactly.
Niamh: We've mentioned this before, but another standout is Denney and Frazier's free, which is great. And I accept no criticism of it, and it's honestly my favorite Free Skate of the season, any discipline.
Evie: Any discipline?! Wow!
Kite: Oh, okay. Them's fighting words.
Niamh: To be fair, though, it only is the fourth event of the season.
Evie: I was about to say, I thought you would've gone straight for Jason [Brown].
Niamh: No. He's close, but... [laughs]
Kite: I think of all of the US Pair matchups that could've happened this season. I definitely did not see Denney and Frazier being the US pairs who were walking from the Grand Prix with two medals.
Niamh: I was expecting [Ashley] Cain and [Timothy] Leduc. I was expecting them to come out and try to challenge to be one of the top.
Evie: They won US Classic over Peng and Jin, and Tarasova and Morozov, in September with really quite high scores for them, so going in, I was definitely like, "Yeah, out of all the US Pairs, they're probably gonna be the ones that are gonna be the standouts." But no.
Niamh: I mean, I'm here for it.
Evie: Looking forward to the Grand Prix Final, we have Pavliuchenko and Khodykin who have qualified with their two silver medals, here at IDF and one from Skate America. Peng and Jin are in with a gold and a silver, woohoo. It looks like Denney and Frazier, they've got their two bronze medals, they're likely to be on the alternates list, but you know, who knows? People could mess up at the next two assignments and things could get thrown out the window.
Kite: Stranger things have definitely happened. Looking forward to who is still able to qualify. Starting at Rostelecom next week, we have Tarasova and Morozov, and [Aleksandra] Boikova and [Dmitri] Kozlovskii for the big names. Tarasova and Morozov need a silver or better, because they have a bronze from Skate Canada to get into the Final, and then Kozlovskii and Boikova just need fourth or better.
Evie: It’s definitely doable.
Kite: Yeah, I think a clean Tarasova/Morozov should be [ahead of] Boikova and Kozlovskii in terms of polish and PCS, but they've kind of been concerning the season at their previous two events, so I'm not sure that's going to happen.
Evie: I'm hoping that because they had a pretty big gap in between Skate Canada and the second assignment, a little bit of a break will help them get in the right mindset to come into Rostelecom with a fighting spirit and try to hopefully put out some better performances than what we've seen. Coming up at NHK, we have Sui and Han's second assignment as well as Mishina and Galliamov, and we also have [Kirsten] Moore-Towers and [Michael] Marinaro. Sui and Han are probably going to get to the Final, hopefully, knock on wood. They are probably the stand out of the field to get gold at NHK and Mishina/Galliamov definitely have a chance [to qualify] if they get silver or bronze. If they just get on the podium, they'll probably make it to the Final too. Moore-Towers and Marinaro, they need to do better than whatever Tarasova and Morozov get at Rostelecom to win that tiebreaker for points - which could still potentially happen if they win bronze at NHK and if Tarasova and Morozov don't do as well as they would hope in Russia. It's totally possible. Oh boy, just thinking about the Final and how close it's getting, it's just making me anxious.
Niamh: I can't believe we've had two people have already qualified.
Kite: Well, we are four events in.
Niamh: Yeah, that's horrifying to me.
-end segment- 0:18:02
START: Men
Evie: Okay, should we go into the Men?
Kite: Yes, let's go.
Evie: The boys! So for our podium at IDF: In gold, we have Nathan Chen of the US, in silver, we have Alexander Samarin of Russia and in bronze, we have Kevin Aymoz of France. At Cup of China, in gold, we have Boyang Jin of China, in second, we have Han Yan, also of China, and in third, we have Matteo Rizzo of Italy. So let's talk about the ice at IDF, because it needs to be said - it was bad.
Niamh: It was awful.
Kite: I mean, Niamh was there in person, so she can definitely give you like a first-person view of it. But even on camera, there were literal puddles on the ice and you can see in some of the replays like skaters would put their hand down during a jump and it came out like dripping wet. In addition to seriously messing with your jumps and spins because you're already losing very little friction you have from skating on solid ice, it's actually really dangerous if you land a jump in a puddle because your blades are going to go right out from under you and you have no control of your movements and you're already moving super fast. It was just like a recipe for disaster, and I'm honestly like surprised that we didn't see more concerning incidents from the skaters really struggling to perform their elements when the ice quality was just such a disaster. I think Nathan after the Short Program because he kind of had the mistake on the triple Axel, you can see him kind of saying something to Raf in the Kiss and Cry. He was pointing towards the patch. He had messed up the Axel, and another general theme of this event was Axels kind of being MIA - because you can't do edge jumps when the ice is literally water, and your edge can't grip onto solid ice to get you into the air for the jump. It was just really frustrating.
Evie: Yeah, Nathan was having problems with his Axel there, Shoma was also having problems - so many people were having issues with their edge jumps and you look at it and you go, “This is clearly because the ice is not up to par.” At this point, at an event this big, it's kind of unacceptable to have this low an ice quality.
Niamh: I think it didn't come across as much on camera as it did even as a spectator, because I haven't gone back and watched a stream fully, because I'm still very emotionally scarred. Being there on the ice, you could literally see the water splash when someone landed a jump, like that shouldn't happen. When someone lands their jump, you expect to see some snow, but you're not supposed to see liquid water.
Kite: Like this is advanced snow.
Niamh: I was [talking] to the ones sitting beside me, I was like “We might as well be watching synchronized swimming.”
Evie: Polar ice cap synchronized swimming - coming to an Olympics near you!
Niamh: It couldn't get worse, like the FFSG tried to deny the ice quality on Twitter.
Kite: Yeah, they were like, “Oh, it's just like you know, reflections from the lights,” and their reflections are really just on this one patch of the rink and nowhere else, (sarcastically) that makes sense.
Niamh: But even as a spectator view temperature-wise, it was as if they just couldn't decide on what temperature they wanted. One program would be really, really, really cold as if they were trying to freeze the ice a bit, and then 10 minutes later, it would be really, really warm, and you'd be sitting there in just a t-shirt.
Evie: Yeah, and then we had Cup of China which you know, we all kind of expected to be extremely chaotic considering the field here.
Niamh: And its history.
Evie: And its history!
Kite: Its reputation really does preceded it.
Evie: It really does! And we had so many Men competing here in the middle of the field, or with similar scoring potential, or similar inconsistency. And there was no one clear winner like we had the last couple weeks because Vincent Zhou withdrew from both of his assignments. So it was kind of like “Who's going to step up?” and then everyone kind of died a little bit. It was very messy.
Niamh: A summary of the Cup of China Short Program is: Han Yan won despite having not competed in nearly two years.
Evie: Without a quad. So let's go on. Kind of a sad note, I guess, to talk about Shoma Uno who did not have a good outing at IDF.
Niamh: That's putting it lightly.
Evie: It was one of the most heartbreaking performances to watch. Like it was up there with Boyang at Worlds 2018 levels of uncomfortableness for the Free.
Kite: I mean, it was probably worse than that, because at least Boyang at 2018 World, like he was coming off of fourth-place finish at the Olympics. He's probably just really burned out at that point.
Evie: Yeah, that's true.
Kite: And he kind of just got up and brushed it off and he was like, “Sometimes it happens.” Whereas you can see Shoma was like, he wanted to have a good outing. He wanted to show that he's been able to keep up with the top ranks of men even during this transitional period and it was really rough.
Evie: And especially after having such a tough Free Skate, the fact that he had to go sit in the Kiss and Cry by himself. I was in tears at the end of both of his programs. And I know that the crowd was really supportive towards him, especially your section Niamh, the area you guys were sitting at.
Niamh: Thank you, thank you.
Kite: The Shoma support corner. Based on what he said after the competition, I think the transformation of his mental state has been really amazing, because in the past, he's been pretty open about the fact that he struggles with self-doubt and with not really believing in himself, and I think for the first time at IDF, granted, after he had two really, really rough programs, he realized for the first time how many people are behind him and support him, no matter what his results are.
Niamh: He said something in an interview, "After a skate like this, I would have said sorry, but now, I just want to say thank you." And then after the gala, I think it was, he said that, for the first time in a while, he felt like he wanted to compete.
Kite: Watching skating live, not just someone who has a rough skate, but watching them go out onto the ice alone - it really puts it into perspective, how lonely it is to be out there. Being able to come back with the knowledge that you aren't alone and that you have people behind you and supporting you no matter what is something that every skater needs if they want to rise to the top of the ranks.
Evie: I'm really glad that he's going to go and train with Stephane [Lambiel] for these next couple of weeks leading up to Rostelecom because I think that being in a supportive environment and getting some feedback from a coach will really help him going into Cup of Russia.
Niamh: Rostelecom at this point isn't even about him going out and winning because he doesn't need the points, he's out of the Grand Prix Final no matter what. So it's not like he has to go into Rostelecom with the mindset "Oh I need to win, I need those 15 points." He just has to go and put together two performances that he can be proud of.
Evie: Going on to a bit more of a happier note, let's talk about Kévin!
All hosts: Yay!
Kite: His first major medal - and on home ice! He is so wonderful, he's such a natural performer. I think in the last episode people were talking about how with some skaters the music turns on and you can just see that they feel with their body what they're supposed to do in rhythm to the music and I think, honestly, Kévin is probably the peak example of that in skating right now. His style is so different and so modern.
Niamh: There's no one else, at least in maybe the top 30 elite men, that has the same style.
Kite: He's very unique in that regard. I hope that a Grand Prix medal is the stepping stone that he needs to finally get the scores he should be getting from the outset - especially in components. Because, as we all know, components are heavily reputation-based.
Niamh: I think it will be really exciting to see how his performance and scores develop from having a really good skate at Autumn Classic and then getting a Grand Prix medal, and seeing how that goes into Europeans, especially.
Evie: Yeah, because there is definitely potential for Europeans to be up for grabs. But honestly, when he started crying after both of his programs, I immediately started crying as well - even though it was happy tears, I was just like "Oh, Kévin! Oh, boy." Honestly, his Short Program, "The Question of U" Short Program - it's my favorite of the season so far. He had my favorite Short Program last season as well, I loved "Horns." He's keeping up that streak, it is the best! I really hope that he has a good showing at NHK because he really does have a chance, if he gets on the podium, to get to the Final which is amazing.
Niamh: I have so much stress about NHK.
Evie: NHK's going to be a thing.
Kite: We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
Evie: Let's talk about another home crowd medal, another first Grand Prix medal - well, for this, a first Grand Prix win - for Boyang Jin!
Niamh: Yay! [Evie & Kite: Woohoo!] Especially with his history on the Grand Prix.
Kite: Yeah, he doesn't usually peak on the Grand Prix. He peaks sometime around Four Continents and Worlds which, if you've got to pick a time to peak, that's probably the better time. But it was always kind of concerning to see that he was a little bit stagnant in the first half of the season and he wasn't getting in front of the judges and making a strong case for himself to be a top 3 man. And then he finally just went out and - didn't have perfect programs - but he did more than enough to secure the win.
Evie: The deep outside edge he gets on it and then the extremely clean toe-picking, obviously, he gets close to the boards when he lands it, which is always terrifying, but it's so nice.
Niamh: That's kind of Boyang's thing, at this point.
Kite: The one thing that I would like to see him improve on, just a small nitpick, is that his landings are still a little bit scratchy. He lands a little bit forward, so he doesn't have the cleanest running edge coming out of it. But as far as take off, speed, and air position go, it's god tier. Should be in a textbook - Boyang Jin, go give jump clinics. [Hosts laugh]
Evie: And his Free Skate was almost clean if it wasn't for the fall right at the end of the program when he fell on the ending pose!
Kite: Oh my god!
Niamh: And [the fall] wasn't even on an element!
Kite: That's why I always get so worried when I see skaters where their ending position is on the ice or they're not fully balanced. Like last year, Rika [Kihira], in her Free Skate where she was on one knee at the end and sometimes during the run through you could really see her struggling to keep her balance and I was super stressed about it all the time. And then Boyang actually went out there and proved to me why I should be stressed about skaters who decide to end their programs like that. I'm torn about his Free Skate, I don't really feel like he's connecting to the music in the first half. He still seems to be skating over it, rather than skating to it. But then as soon as the tempo quickens halfway through, he seems to hit his stride and really starts emoting. I think some of the issues he has with projection have to do with focusing on landing his jumps and he's not really paying attention to the choreography. So I'd really like to see him integrate jumps and interpretation more smoothly going forward.
Evie: I also think that the music in the first half doesn't have a lot of builds, it only really picks up the pace in the second half where, obviously, he's done all of his difficult jumps. He can focus on emoting and throwing everything into the last couple of choreographic and step sequence elements. But I think that the music doesn't really lend itself to expression and interpretation, at least for him. I'm not a huge fan of this Free Skate, but I really like his Short Program. I think that it's one of the best he's ever had. You can just see how much he's improved in his performance skills in that Short Program, it's so nice. He constantly gets nitpicked about his components being the weakest of the top men and I'm like, "Look, he's actively making these strides! While he might not be improving in some areas, like his transitions, because they don't give him a lot of transitions into his elements, especially the quad Lutz. But look, he's making an effort to make sure he can express the meanings of the programs in a much more open way than we've seen in previous seasons."
Kite: He's made such huge strides in just the past season in terms of paying attention to his upper body, especially his arms. Because I remember that his arms used to be really stiff during the choreographic elements of his programs and it was really jarring to see because it didn't really seem like he had a lot of upper body awareness in the past. And in the Free Skate, I was finally starting to see that he's understanding how to integrate his full body movements into expressing the music
And also with just his mental state and putting early mistakes out of his mind, like popping the quad toe and then having a clean skate the rest of the way through. Which is not something that you would've expected from Boyang Jin, last season.
Evie: Yeah!
Kite: Say he would have an early mistake and then the whole program would just fall to pieces. But it seems like he's really been working on that, which is really relieving to see. I think that the Grand Prix Final might be out of the question for him depending on how the last two events go?
Evie: You never know!
Kite: But this gives me a lot of hope. If he looks this good in November, I have hope for his progress later in the season.
Evie: Okay, shall we talk about the return of the one, the only, Mister Han Yan!
Kite: Yes!
Niamh: I'm so happy!
Kite: For newer fans, who maybe joined after the Olympics and don't know the saga of Han Yan, he was consistently one of China's top two men for the last Olympic cycle. He was 7th in the Sochi Olympics, but unfortunately, he dealt with some injuries and a general lack of support from the Chinese federation that made his competitive journey really difficult. So he struggled at the 2018 Olympics, where he was 23rd, and for a time just sat out of the sport and was really trying to reevaluate what he wanted to do with the rest of his life. He was gone for 20 months, so he hasn't competed since the Olympics, which was in February 2018. He made his comeback at Cup of China, and won the Short Program!
Evie: I legitimately forgot how good his basic skating skills were until I saw him. It's been so long since I've watched a program of his, that as soon as I saw him in the Short Program and the way he just effortlessly glides across the rink. He needs like, two crossovers and he's got enough speed to cross the entire length of the rink - it's insane. You just look at him, and you go, "He's so smooth and so nice to watch. This is what good skating is. Thank you!”
Niamh: I feel like bringing back the “Twilight” Short Program was a good decision. He did it [during] the Olympic season.
Kite: He only has the one assignment, which is Cup of China. He would actually be in a good spot to qualify for the Final if he had another assignment, which is really hilarious to me and honestly speaks to how chaotic Men is this season. Of all the men who potentially could be on the cusp of making it to the Final, Han Yan was probably not on my shortlist of men.
Evie: I know right!
Niamh: We’re back in 2015, we have Han Yan and Nam Nguyen!
Evie: Honestly, we really have - we've time-warped! Someone get him to NHK if they can. I don't know how they're going to do it, but I need him to have a second assignment. I need it!
Niamh: There was a moment after the Short Program when we were like, "Wait, if he wins this entire thing and he has no second assignment, what happens?"
Evie: A couple of shout-outs: we have Nicolas Nadeau from Canada, who honestly - I've become such a fan of him over the last couple of competitions! I don't know what the hell happened. Especially his “Depeche Mode” Free, it’s so much fun. I love him.
Kite: I saw him at Skate Canada and he landed all of his jumps in the Free Skate, and then he was so excited that he landed all of his jumps that he tripped and just belly-flopped and penguin slid across the ice right in front of me. I'm glad that that was not something that happened.
Evie: Another shout-out is Tomoki Hiwatashi for going from 10th in the short at IDF to 5th overall, after the Free. That is my son! I'm so happy for him!
Niamh: I've always liked his skating, but it was during the practice sessions at IDF and I was like, "Oh he's so charismatic!"
Evie: And our last little shout-out is to Brendan Kerry for having the most uncle-y programs of the season, despite not being an uncle. Especially his Short Program, it's the biggest fricking trip - you really have to just go watch it, it's crazy.
Kite: Let's briefly look forward to the Final. Nathan is now in with two golds, Skate America and IDF. And then, it's a shoulder shrug as to who else. Obviously, Yuzuru Hanyu has his second assignment at NHK, but I don't trust his second assignment anymore and I don't want to jinx anything. Honestly, I don't want to make any predictions about what's going to happen at NHK.
Evie: Listen, if he just comes out of the event with two ankles, I'll be happy.
Kite: I'm going to be really happy. I know he's going to do his best, he should have no problem winning NHK in the field that he's in, but historically I have some traumas surrounding this. And the other men seem to be going in a mass extinction event at this point. Boyang who has 20 points might make it, depending on what the next two competitions are like.
Niamh: Compared to what we were saying at the beginning of the season of who's likely to make the Final. It was like, Shoma, Vincent, Boyang, Keegan, and now everyone's just being knocked off one by one. Now it's just we're putting up a dartboard with skater's faces and throwing darts and like, "Okay, you can make the Final".
Evie: We're spinning the wheel, boys!
Kite: There's like eight men who can qualify still, at this point. Rostelecom next week, there's Alexander Samarin, Dmitri Aliev, and Nam Nguyen. Samarin needs to get on the podium here, he has a silver from IDF. And then Dmitri Aliev was third at Skate America, so he needs a silver medal or better. Nam needs to get on the podium, and he can potentially bump Dima off the podium depending on how they both do. Neither of them are the most consistent skaters. It could be both of them, it could be neither of them. Who knows. Of course, Shoma is also going to be at Rostelecom and he's a potential spoiler if he can skate well. He can potentially block one of the aforementioned men from qualifying for the Grand Prix Final. A lot is up in the air, and at NHK you have Yuzuru, Kevin Aymoz, and Jason Brown. As I said, I refuse to jinx Yuzuru by putting anything out into the universe except that I know he's going to do his best. Kevin needs a silver medal or better, and then Jason needs to get on the podium. Neither of them are the strongest technical skaters, so it's just going to come down to who is better on that day. And then Sota Yamamoto is also a potential spoiler at NHK. He's been having a pretty solid season.
Evie: Honestly, I'm still so pissed that he didn't get a second assignment.
Kite: If he can skate a clean program, he does have more technical content than Kevin and Jason. And if those two make mistakes, he can potentially spoil their chances of getting into the Grand Prix Final. That's a big if, but this whole season is kind of a big if. So what else is new?
Evie: Honestly I would love that just for the fact that Sota and Yuzu on the same podium together.
Kite: That would be so much good content. Yeah, the Men's Grand Prix Final. It's such a motley crew of skaters potentially vying for the bronze medal. Nathan is already in, Yuzuru...
Niamh: Assuming all goes well.
Kite: All goes well and he makes it to his December competitions this year. Shoma and Jun didn't make it to the Final this year, Vincent and Mikhail are sitting out the Grand Prix, and it's really thrown a wrench into the standings. This is a great season for a middle of the pack skater to break out and make a case for becoming a top man. Not naming any names, Kevin.
Evie: Kevin.
[laughter]
-end segment- 0:38:18
START: Ice Dance
Evie: Okay, let's move on to Ice Dance. For the podium at IDF: in first, unsurprisingly, it's Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron of France, in second, we have Madison Chock and Evan Bates of the US, and in third, we have Charlène Guignard and Marco Fabbri of Italy. At Cup of China, in first, we have Viktoria Sinitsina and Nikita Katsalapov of Russia, in second, again, we have Madison Chock and Evan Bates of the US, and in third, we have Laurence Fournier-Beaudry and Nikolaj Sorensen of Canada. Unsurprisingly, Papadakis and Cizeron got another World Record here at IDF in the Rhythm Dance.
Kite: We're back to skaters, Ice Dance teams specifically, not hitting their levels and then just getting super high GOE and negating the fact that they didn't actually hit all of the key points or whatever.
Evie: I mean, at this point, I'm kind of Stockholm Syndromed into this. I'm not at all bothered by their scoring anymore. And also it's the early season, I'm not expecting people to hit their levels this early. Especially because last early season with Tango Romantica, no one hitting their levels whatsoever. This season is actually slightly better on that front. Finnstep is a little bit more forgiving.
Kite: They were definitely the class of the field, they deserved to win, I just don't know if I'd be giving them close to 90 in the Short Program where they're getting level twos and threes on their steps.
Evie: Yeah, no, I completely agree.
Evie: Honestly, I'm like, "There are other things that I can get mad about. This is not a thing I should be bothering to worry about at this point." I'll just stick into my little corner and focus on the fact that the Italians are still getting robbed. It was a thing last season, it is a thing this season. They are such good skaters and, honestly, I would've put them in second over Chock and Bates in both the Rhythm and the Free Dance. Their skating skills are just miles ahead of them. They literally skated a clean Free Dance, at the beginning of the season! What kind of- I can't, this is just - they are the first team this season to skate all level four in the Free, and it's at their first Grand Prix! It's blowing my mind.
Kite: Yeah. The Italians are the best technical skaters in the world. It's really not even close at this point. I think they're objectively much better Ice Dancers than Chock and Bates in all of the technical respects. And in all of the components, except for maybe Interpretation and Performance.
Evie: Yeah, I agree with that.
Kite: I saw them at the Grand Prix Final last season, and they're just so powerful and they get such great ice coverage. They obviously drill their technical elements to make sure that they're hitting all of the key points. I feel like Chock and Bates getting kind of question mark scores is the theme of the past two events, honestly.
Evie: Yeah, honestly. They won the Free Dance at Cup of China, by a four-point margin over Sinitsina and Katsalapov. Honestly, I don't like either of those teams' Free Dances this season, they both have problems. Obviously, Sinitsina and Katsalapov, their Free Dance this season is quite similar to the one they had last season. It's that soft, floaty, classical which in my opinion does not work for them at all. They need something edgy or modern, like what they did for their Tango last season which really worked for them. This floaty program, and the fact that they have two classical style programs, with Singing in the Rain and now this, it's like... [sigh] Guys, you have really great elements and basics, but I can't like you because I don't like your programs. And then obviously, Chock and Bates's whole Egyptian snake Free Dance which I don't even want to talk about, it's that bad.
Kite: We don't want to get into that. See our cultural appropriation episode for more on that.
Evie: That will be coming out in a very short amount of time, in like a week. So...
Kite: But it's the same thing I said regarding the Italians, that they should really be winning easily against a team like Chock and Bates, with superior components in all but maybe Interpretation and Performance. Chock and Bates are great performers, Madi serves so much face. Their main strength really is connecting to the music and the crowd, but they shouldn't be winning segments with their technical elements.
Niamh: Or if they are winning, not by four points.
Evie: Yeah, four points is a huge margin in Ice Dance to be winning a Free Dance by. Especially when they had a lower base value than S/K did in the Free - it was like a point but that's still quite a bit. And there was quite a big points gap between both those teams in the Rhythm Dance because Chock and Bates didn't hit their levels. And even though they didn't, they still got really really generous GOE. I think they only got a level one on the Finnstep, but they still got +2. Whereas teams that were hitting better levels than them weren't getting maybe a +1 or even less than that. I'm just like....
Kite: Okay!
Evie: Okay! I see how it is! US Fed is putting all their eggs in the Chock/Bates' basket - I get that!
Niamh: My whole thing is how it's interesting to see Chock and Bates's scoring go up against [Madison] Hubbell and [Zachary] Donohue's.
Evie: Especially because Chock and Bates's Free Dance score here at Cup of China is the highest Free Dance score we've seen outside of Papadakis and Cizeron.
Kite: It's like how Papadakis and Cizeron aren't even factoring into this anymore, it's like aside from them.
Evie: Yeah, we understand they're going to be at the top, let's worry about the rest of the field. But especially when thinking about the Free Dance, how Hubbell and Donohue have lost the Free Dance twice in a row at Skate America and Skate Canada. Now Chock and Bates are posting these really really high scores here in the Free... It's making me extremely nervous for Nationals. Let's get into talking about Papadakis and Cizeron a little bit more deeply, because this is their first major competition of the season. We saw them at French Masters, but obviously, they didn't do any Challengers so this is the first time we're seeing both of their programs in competition. Honestly, I think this is probably the first time I've actually liked a Rhythm or Short Dance from them. Their Fame is actually quite fun, and I appreciate that they've gone for more of an upbeat theme this season.
Kite: My take on the Rhythm Dance is, if you're going to skate to music where they're counting above the pattern, you had better be right on the beat.
Evie: Yep.
Kite: Because they were slightly off, and it just threw the whole thing for me. Where I'm like, "Am I supposed to be paying attention to the counting? Am I supposed to be paying attention to the steps?"
Evie: It's a good idea in theory, but if you're not going to be pulling it off in practice, what's the point?
Kite: It creates a disconnect for people who are watching.
Evie: I think honestly, I would be completely sold on this Rhythm Dance if it weren't for the lift at the end of the program. Because they've just recycled that same version of the stationary lift they've been doing for the last couple of seasons. I don't think it works for this kind of program. They're in spandex! They're all athletic and stuff! Do a crazy acrobatic style lift! I don't think a stationary lift in particular works in this kind of program? I think something a bit more dynamic that travels across the rink, that highlights the music, would work a lot better for this Rhythm Dance. But overall, it's really fun. I really want to see it in time, I guess.
Kite: I think this Rhythm Dance, with more run-throughs and more polish, definitely has the potential to be one of those iconic programs, like Jason's “Riverdance,” that can really bridge the gap between figure skating fans and people who aren't necessarily fans or know much about it. So I'm excited to see where it goes. Like Evie said, I just want them to actually be on the beat.
Evie: And then their Free Dance is a little bit out of the box this season. It uses poetry, spoken word poetry, by the artist Forest Blakk. It's a very interesting concept, and we haven't really seen this kind of program before. Obviously, we've had too many voice-over programs but none with all voice-overs before.
Niamh: It's like Papadakis and Cizeron watched the rest of IDF and was like, "You give us voiceovers, but we're going to give you voiceovers."
Evie: You call those voiceovers? This is a voiceover!
Kite: In the past I think Papadakis and Cizeron have been criticized a fair bit for not really branching out of a certain style that they've used to really rocket to the top of the standings. And this is so different from any of the other teams are doing and what they've done in the past.
Kite: And they're probably the best team to be taking this risk honestly because they're pretty much untouchable. And they have a lot of room to experiment with different music choices. It would be easy for a team that's so consistently at the top to just fall back on the reliable music choices that have helped them get there, but it seems like they're really trying actually to develop their expression more.
Evie: And not just their expression, their lifts that they're doing this program are a lot more challenging acrobatics than we've seen in their past couple of free dances, which, as a person who loves acrobatic lifts, is really, really nice to see! And especially, I love the double Ina Bauers they do into that lift partway through the program [Niamh: Oh my god...], it's so nice.
Kite: It's so stunning.
Evie: It's a really great transitional element and the way that they blend and flow with each other -- it just works so well. I'm almost sold on this program but -- this might just be a "me" thing or a watching-over-a-stream thing but watching it, I was really more focused on listening to the poetry rather than actually watching their skating. I found it quite difficult to focus, and there is obviously something to be said about watching ice dance through a stream and how it does come across a lot more strongly in person. But Niamh, I want to hear your input on that. You were there and you saw the program.
Niamh: I just remember the arena being quiet. It was one of those programs where I don't even remember -- like I have to rewatch the program to actually tell you what happened in the program if that makes sense. Like you said, Ice Dance is one of those disciplines where you have to be there in person, but this program especially is one of those ones you have to be there in person because the connection between the voiceovers and the instrumental and their actual skating - it's just not the same in person. Especially because Papadakis and Cizeron, I don't even think their core skating skills come off as good on the stream. They're so fast, and just watching them in practices and warm-up, you'll blink for like a minute- well you don't blink for a minute. [Hosts laughs]
Kite: I think that's called sleeping!
Evie: Casual comas at the rink!
Niamh: [laugh] You'll blink for like a second and there'll just be at the complete other side of the rink. And you're like what? Even just rewatching it I get goosebumps, but watching it in person was just an out of body experience.
Kite: It really did feel like a religious ritual almost, if that makes sense. I personally didn't think that the voiceovers were that distracting because I thought it was a good blend of spoken word poetry during the more choreographic moments of the program, and then the background instrumental when they were doing the technical elements. So I didn't feel like the elements themselves were really overshadowed by the words. But yeah, the silence in the rink and the ethereal piano music almost made it fell like I was in church.
Niamh: It's definitely one of those programs that if you see it on paper, like just seeing the words "spoken word" on paper, or hearing it first hand. When you see it done and you see it as well done as theirs is and you see it done by a team that is still polished as they are - there are no words to describe it.
Evie: Let's go on to talking about our bronze medalists, [Charlene] Guignard and [Marco] Fabbri. Honestly, I'm so happy that they went with a modern style Free Dance this season because especially [because] it's so modern, the fact that it's sharper and more dramatic. We talked about this last season in relation to their Tango Rhythm Dance but, Charlene especially, her facial expressions really lend themselves well to more dark and dramatic programs. And I really like the choice of music as well, because Space Oddity is one of my favorite songs of all time and I love Amanda Palmer so a cover by her is just a match made in heaven for me. It's just so good. Their speed and their ice coverage and just how effortless everything looks, especially considering that Marco had a hand injury here at IDF. I was really worried during the lifts that he was gonna drop her because I was like “Is his hand weight-bearing? Is it okay?”
Niamh: I've always been fond of them because, as anyone who knows me knows, I'm a massive "Riverdance" and "Lord of the Dance" fan.
Kite: You don't say.
Evie: What? I didn't know that, Niamh.
Niamh: [Laughs] And they have one of the best "Riverdance's" - they combined "Riverdance" and "Lord of the Dance." I've said this before but if you haven't seen it, go watch it! So I've been fond of them from that, and then last year at Helsinki they played "Claire de Lune" instead of their Rhythm Dance music. There's just always been little instances with them that's just made me really fond of them over the years. Recently, seeing everyone get on their team and get behind them has been really nice and I'm like "Oh, please rise!"
Evie: I am so upset about their assignments this season because they've got two of the toughest assignments for a top team in the circuit. They're up against Papadakis and Cizeron both times, they're both going to be at NHK, and then they also have Stepanova and Bukin to go up against. So most likely they'll walk away with another bronze which will probably put them at first alternate position for the Final.
Niamh: Yeah, it's not an automatic qualification.
Evie: No, it makes me so upset. I want to see them at the Final, especially because the Final's in Italy this year. I want to see them have a home crowd Grand Prix Final.
Niamh: And it's like, we don't want to wish bad on anyone else but...
Evie: No. So - time for me to rant about my kids!
Kite: Go off, Evie!
Evie: Let me talk about [Shiyue] Wang/[Xinyu] Liu! I can't even express all of my feelings about this team as a whole and all of the feelings about their improvements this season - not just in their base technical ability but also in the way that they've been scored because they've had a massive jump from last season to this season. It started at Nebelhorn and we saw it at Finlandia and now we saw it at Cup of China. Their personal best in the Rhythm Dance last year was 69, nice, [Kite: Nice] and, in the last three competitions, they've been in the mid-70s. Which is insane!
Niamh: Especially in Ice Dance!
Evie: Especially in Ice Dance, to see that kind of jump so quickly, over the course of one off season. And then in the Free as well, they had low 100s all throughout last season and then they hit 110 here at Cup of China. Finally, the Gadbois bonus is working for Asian federation teams! All of their GOE was really good and I was just like "Is this a dream?" This is everything I've wanted for them! The fact that they got so much crowd support too, they easily had the most applause out of anyone in the Ice Dance field here and they got so many plushies. And they got invited to the gala as well, which is really great because we didn't get to see them at any galas last season. But specifically, out of both of their programs, I really want to talk about their Rhythm Dance because it's "Charlie Chaplin," and as soon as I heard it was "Chaplin" I was just like "I'm not going to like this." [Niamh: Why?] I don't like most "Chaplin" programs. The only one off the top of my head that I really like is Anna [Cappellini] and Luca [Lanotte]'s show program. The one where Luca's in the crowd sleeping - that one. I don't like any other “Chaplins”. Like, no thank you. And then as soon as I saw this one at the Chinese test event last month, I was like “Oh my god.” Not only is this the best Rhythm Dance they've ever had, this is probably my favorite Rhythm Dance of the season. I was talking to Kat about this I think, but this program could be very boring if they weren't 100% committed to performing the characters, they don't break character for the entire program. You never see them drop that kind of goofy expression. It's amazing. Xinyu, you said you didn't like funny or silly programs. And you were wrong. You're perfect for them. You have the best face to pull off a derpy program. [Hosts laugh]
Niamh: I just love that they look like penguins.
Evie: They do! I love the fact that they've got matching costumes and matching choreography in places. It's so good!
Niamh: The matching costumes as well just really elevates the height difference.
Kite: He is a tall boy. She's not short -- I mean she's tiny, but she's not short. He's just really really tall.
Evie: I'm so happy that they got a fourth-place finish which is just insane. I could have never guessed they would have gotten that good of a result here.
Kite: Yeah, they were pretty close to the podium actually. Unfortunately, I think it was that one level in the Free Dance that dropped it.
Evie: Yeah. Xinyu messed up the twizzle in the Free. That level plus the GOE they would have gotten from that, it probably wouldn't have made up that gap. It would have been very very close, but just cause they had a little bit of a difference between the Canadanes and them in the Rhythm Dance. Just work on your level, guys. You know, I'm just so happy for them. This is everything I've wanted.
Kite: Right. Shall we look forward to the Final?
Evie: If we must.
Kite: Alright. So Hubbell and Donohue are in with a gold and a silver, and Chock and Bates just qualified after Cup of China with two silvers. The skaters who are still able to qualify at Rostelecom next week we have Sinitsina and Katsalapov up against [Piper] Gilles and [Paul] Poirier. Gilles and Poirier actually have a higher season best in the Free, so they're actually on pretty even ground. On the other hand, it's in Russia, so I don't have a lot of hope for Gilles and Poirier winning outright unless Sinitsina and Katsalapov really mess up, because they are Russia number one right now.
Evie: Yeah. I mean, [Gilles and Poirier] just need to get on the podium here and they'll go to the Final, and that's gonna be the first time they're ever gonna make the Final. So yay! That's what we like to see!
Kite: And then at NHK, in two weeks we're gonna have Papadakis and Cizeron who are given to probably take the event by storm and then [Alexandra] Stepanova and [Ivan] Bukin should round out the six teams going to the Grand Prix Final.
Evie: Yeah. Guignard and Fabbri probably aren't gonna qualify unless they somehow manage to get silver over Stepanova and Bukin - which has happened before. It happened at Grand Prix Final last year, but slim chances. And then we've got the Canadanes who have the two bronzes. They are probably gonna end up being second alternates behind Guignard and Fabbri. Jesus, this Grand Prix Final is gonna be hell.
Kite: It's gonna be such a bloodbath and I'm totally here for it because there have been pretty major upsets this season and then some previously dominant teams are starting to look a bit more vulnerable. I think silver and bronze are basically up for grabs at this point depending on who puts on the cleanest programs.
Evie: It's probably gonna come down to the wire for those silver and bronze spots, it's going to be so intense. I honestly didn't appreciate how calm last season's Grand Prix Final was because Papadakis and Cizeron and Chock/Bates are both coming back this season and have really thrown a wrench in the works overall. Now it's just "I have all these teams that I really want to get to the Final but now there are two others that have come back and they're no longer a given anymore." Why is it like this? Dance at Grand Prix Final - It's gonna be hell.
Niamh: Grand Prix Final full stop.
-end segment- 0:58:54
START: Ladies
Evie: Okay. Last but not least, let us go on to the Ladies.
Niamh: At IDF, we have Alena Kosternaia from Russia in gold, we have Alina Zagitova in second, also from Russia, and we have Mariah Bell, from the US, in bronze. At Cup of China, we have Anna Scherbakova in gold from Russia, Satoko Miyahara from Japan in silver and Elizaveta Tuktamysheva from Russia in bronze.
Evie: Let's talk about how strict the calling of these events was because the tech panel was…
Niamh: What the heck?
Kite: Bruh.
Evie: Oh boy. The tech panel was awake? Question mark?
Kite: Yeah. They emerged from their slumber.
Niamh: Being like in the arena, because we don't have the access to the levels like you do at home with the TES box, so every time a score came out we were like “What?” I remember I think it was Wakaba's Short Program and the entire arena was just like “What?”
Evie: I mean, it's kinda sad we’re so complacent with the fact the tech panel is basically not gonna do its job and we're all just like surprised when people actually get called on stuff. It's sad.
Kite: I think the skaters were quite surprised too. Like, Alina Zagitova got edge calls on here Lutz and under-rotations on her triple-triple combos - and she's never been called on here Lutz edge in Seniors before.
Evie: Yeah, that was shocking.
Kite: And then Alena got called on the triple Axel in the Short, which I don't know if I agree with personally. The landing was a little bit wonky, it seemed like she was a little bit outside the circle and she was kind of doing that fish hook thing where she doesn't really get her rotations. But the camera angle wasn't the best to gauge it. I probably would have given it to her but if they were being really strict...
Evie: Yeah. I mean I’m not gonna have a problem with the fact that they called it because they were being pretty consistent with their strict calling, except in the case of Mariah, who did not get many calls in both programs here.
Kite: Yeah, that was so weird to me that she was the only lady in the Short Program who didn't get called on either edges or under-rotations. It's like really egregious because her triple-triple combos are visibly underrotated.
Evie: Yeah. It's known that she has issues with underrotations. It's something that she's been having issues with throughout here entire Senior career and it's shocking that - especially because in the replays you could visibly see that she was hooking around to finish off the rotations, especially on her combos, like you said Kite. It was just very visible and yet she didn't get called. And also just looking at her scoring here it's interesting to compare her skating to Bradie's [Tennell], what we saw in Skate America and Skate Canada because they're definitely closing ranks. It's definitely much more close between them now that it has ever been. So I guess Nationals will be interesting in that respect, to see them go up against each other.
Kite: This honestly doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Bradie has similar issues where she tends to underrotate the back end of her combos. [Mariah’s] one of those skaters who really has expressive facial expressions and her upper body movement is really excellent because it's concealing the fact that she's not really doing much with her feet, so the fact that she was outscoring like Kaori in components is really confusing and further demonstrates that I don't think anyone really knows how to score components at this point - they're kind of just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Evie: But the scoring, the calling here at IDF, was really quite strict. We also had quite strict calling at Cup of China as well - two events back to back with pretty strict technical panels. It's really impressive. I mean, all of Anna's Lutzes were given the unclear edge call. They weren’t given actual wrong edge call but all of them were given the exclamation point, the warning. And then, this isn’t out of the ordinary, but Satoko got many underrotation calls. The only ones who got off call-free were Amber [Glenn] in the Short and then Liza in the free. And Anna got called, but she still got a healthy 152 in the Free and won overall. Even with the strict calling, she was still able to get that kind of score, so there you go I guess. Shall we go talk about Alena Kostornaia?
Kite: Honestly, made me cry, about a minute and a half into it. I was so nervous for her because the ice was really bad at IDF, as we all know at this point, and also she had some pretty rough practices there. It seemed like there were a lot of reports that she'd get off the ice and she'd be crying, and Daniil would be trying to console her. She was really struggling with her triple Axel and adding that to the ice conditions, I was just a nervous wreck all of last weekend-
Evie: When are you not a nervous wreck when Alena competes?
Kite: This is fair. True, true, true. But yeah, a minute and a half into her Free Program I just started crying. She's just such a natural performer, and her sensitivity to the music is really quite a breath of fresh air in the Senior Ladies field this season. Especially given that quite a few big-name Juniors are moving up from the Junior ranks into the Senior ranks this season and taking them by storm, she needed something that would make her stand out because she's not doing quads, and I think her real selling point is the fact that she's such an exquisite artist. She's super polished, she has fantastic skating skills, and now that she has the triple Axel I think she's really going to be a contender for the Russian World team.
Evie: And honestly I was so worried going into the season about Alena not having that edge to get on Euros and Worlds teams, but I'm really glad to see her scoring so far and how she's performing. It's really comforting. But also, I don't totally understand the decision to add the triple Axel into the Short at this point at this time, especially with how the conditions were at IDF in regards to the ice. I completely get the idea that if you add the triple Axel in and do it cleanly you get that cushion, so you can afford to maybe make a couple of errors in the Free - but there's something to be said about Alena's scoring potential when she's doing a clean program with double Axel. We've seen it at Finlandia, she can easily challenge around the 80 margin. I don't see the point, at this point in time, of adding the triple Axel into the Short, just for consistency's sake.
Kite: She got 236 exactly at IDF this season, without a quad, which I think really speaks to how well she does the rest of her elements. The highest score is 241, by Sasha Trusova at Skate Canada, and Alena made some small mistakes in both her programs. Her components still have a lot of room to rise, so this is by no means her ceiling, and I think if she can maintain this streak of consistency, by the end of the season she should easily be scoring 35 and 75 in program components. Easily - out of the gate, that's what she should be getting. And I will say that I think her triple Axel looks pretty solid right now, we haven't really seen her make a major mistake on it. Granted, it's only been two events, but she does have the advantage - like the other ladies with triple Axels - of being able to build pretty solid 7-8 point leads out of the Short Program. And that's definitely a cushion that they're probably going to need going into the Free Skate, especially if you're up against someone who's going for four quads.
Evie: That's true! [Laughs]
Kite: And she's able to score close to 160, and that was with some calls and not quite getting the component scores that she probably should be getting... I'm just really, really excited for her, and excited to see how far she can go.
Evie: And we can't stress enough the fact that it's really impressive that she managed to win her first Grand Prix up against the current Olympic Champion.
Kite: Yeah.
Evie: Obviously, Alina didn't have the best showing here, but I was completely shocked about what happened.
Kite: I think even if Alina was clean, I don't think she would have won. Alena won by what, 20 points?
Evie: To be fair, Alena didn't get any calls in the Free, which was a point of contention amongst a lot of people. Especially in regards to her Lutz, because it did get [called as] unclear in the Short, and then in the Free-
Kite: Well, they called the Flip, so they called one of them... [All laugh] They called a jump, they just called the wrong one.
Evie: Ah, we're going by Japan Open rules I see... Speaking of that Flip call, let's talk about Kaori, who had an incredible fight after the Short Program. I cannot remember the last time Kaori made a major error on her Loop, honestly - that is her staple jump that I'm always expecting her to do well. You could really tell the ice was not up to quality because she had a mistake on it in the Short, and it broke my heart.
Kite: Well I want to talk briefly about her components because she should not be 4th [in PCS] anywhere in the world, but especially given the field at IDF. And she was 4th in all categories but Skating Skills in the Free Skate. I think at worst I'd probably put her at second, in this field. I'd probably honestly give her the edge over Alena if it came down to both of them skating clean, because her ice coverage, her speed, her skating skills, interpretation... World-class.
Niamh: I feel like the thing against Alena is that Kaori's just a bit more polished, that comes with maturity.
Evie: I feel like in every competition Kaori is in at this point we all just become the Kaori Sakamoto PCS Defense Brigade because we're so expectant of the fact that she's not going to get the PCS she deserves, especially in Skating Skills, [and] with the Performance & Interpretation mark? This is probably the first I'm ever going to say this but I'm kind of on the judges' side in regards to the Free Skate with the Performance & Interpretation mark, because it's a more modern style program, and especially the first half of the music doesn't really lend itself to easy expression for her. Obviously in the second half when it picks up, and she's slicing the judges with her spiral and it gets really intense, she can let go a little bit, but the first half - there's just not much there to work with in terms of the music. So I can kind of understand that mark, but yes: the others I'm just like, "No, she should be much higher up in Skating Skills and Transitions."
Kite: Evie is going to be excommunicated...
Niamh: Evie is deleted from the PCS Defense Brigade.
Evie: Please do not!! [Laughing]
Kite: Speaking of a lady who did get the PCS she deserved - Satoko at Cup of China, who won PCS in both segments. In the Free Skate, she was the only lady to score above 70, and if you ask me giving her anything below 37 or 75 is still a crime, I think she should get that simply for breathing. [Evie: Agreed!] But relatively speaking, it was a good call. She won PCS by about 5 points in the Free Skate. Personally, I would give her more of a margin than that, but at least-
Niamh: At least she won.
Kite: In the rankings, yeah. This is her first Grand Prix, she's getting a little bit of a late start because of the seeding being weird last season. This is the first time we've seen her since the US Classic. I really wish she didn't have those hand gestures in her Short Program. It makes me slightly uncomfortable as a viewer, to be watching that. I think the disco part of the music is fine, it's fun, it's not egregious during that part.
Niamh: I just don't know who sat down and decided to give her two controversial programs.
Kite: The Short Program is more of a question mark to me because this music doesn't play to her strengths as a performer. I mean, she can skate to anything, and she can make it good, but of all the music I think she could really sell and tug at your heartstrings with, I don't think Egyptian music was the way to go. So I am not really sure why this was chosen for her specifically.
Evie: Yeah. Kudos to her for trying something a little bit different, but I don't think it was really a good call. I don't think that her skating lends itself extremely well to more modern pieces of music, so yeah... I don't know how to feel about it.
Kite: Her Free Skate, her Schindler's List, is really exquisitely choreographed, as far as the pure movements that she's doing go. I'm still a little bit iffy on her using this music, personally, but I think if I had to choose two skaters who could skate to it with the pathos that it requires, they would probably be Jason and Satoko. Because I think they have the sensitivity and they can do it tastefully... now that she's changed her costume.
Evie: On the "tasteful" side of things, I think it's definitely - not just the costume, but also her interpretation of the music and the themes of the program has gotten a little bit more nuanced than we saw at US Classic. Like the facial expressions aren't as overt and out there as they were in September, it's a little bit softer, which I think lends itself a lot better to the themes of the program - not to overexpress what you're trying to show? I just really wish she'd used Bells of Moscow for the entire cut of the music, the program would be a million times better in my opinion. It's still beautiful, but overall I'm a little bit uncomfortable watching it.
Kite: Yeah. I think something to be said for this program is that I really like that she didn't just use the main theme from Schindler's List, that everyone knows and everyone is familiar with.
Evie: Yeah. Okay, briefly let's take a quick look at the Final for Ladies. At the moment, the only lady that's 100% qualified is Anna Shcherbakova, who has her two gold medals. There are still obviously lots of others who could qualify! Coming up next week, at Rostelecom, we have Sasha Trusova and Satoko Miyahara again, we also have Mariah Bell. I think at this point it's pretty much a given that Sasha's going to win, there aren't really any other ladies who can challenge her technically here --
Kite: Or anywhere else in the world, let's be real.
Evie: Yeah. I can't see her - unless she makes significant mistakes - walking away from this event with anything but gold.
Kite: Satoko is potentially on the podium, depending on what the tech panel is like. She needs a silver medal to guarantee that she's going to make it to Grand Prix Final. Mariah needs at least a silver to be on the bubble but she's going to need to win if she wants a guarantee of making it to Grand Prix Final. And then potential spoilers: Evgenia Medvedeva, who is probably not going to make the Final at this point but could block either Satoko or Mariah from getting the points they need if she wins a medal. And then at NHK, we have Alena Kostornaia, Alina Zagitova, and Rika Kihira. Alena needs to get on the podium to make it to the Final, and then both Alina and Rika need a silver or better. Basically, NHK is going to be really stressful, because it's possible one of them won't make Grand Prix Final, depending on how Rostelecom shakes out. But it also depends a bit on what Mariah and Satoko do. And then Liza and Bradie are on the bubble for qualification, and if that's the case Bradie would win the tie-breaker for qualification because she has a silver medal at Skate America.
Evie: Oh boy! Why are Ladies like this, my heart can't take this kind of abuse!
Kite: You thought Men was chaotic, consider Ladies!
Evie: Consider Ladies...
-end segment- 1:14:41
START: Shout Out of the Week
Niamh: Our shoutout of the week is to Han Yan for coming back to us, and saving figure skating with his godly edges and triple Axel. And for giving the sport another chance -- we know China is trying to build up their singles and their disciplines before the Olympics but he does seem genuinely, really happy to be competing and I just want everyone to give him the support he deserves, please!
Kite: Whenever he lands his triple Axel it's just, like, the body of Christ. [Laughter]
Evie: Honestly. I've got another couple of shout-outs for Cup of China and they're both related to the Victory Ceremonies. The first one obviously being for Pairs, the fact that Xue Shen was the one handing out the Pairs medals - she literally did not do any of the others, she was only there to give the gold to Sui and Han really, and I was like, "Yes! Yes, I love that!" And the second one is the return of the Cup of China Victory Ceremony song, the "Stand up! For the champions, for the champions, stand up!"
Kite: Oh my gosh!
Evie: I forgot how much I liked that song. At the start, I was like, "Okay, I'm already kind of over this," and by the end of it I was just like, "Yes I am singing along, this is a bop!"
Kite: I wasn't watching the Victory Ceremony live, so when I saw people saying -- the first line of the Chinese national anthem is "Stand up, stand up" and I thought it was just the anthem, so I was like, "Why is everyone getting this excited about the Chinese national anthem?!" [Laughter] It's great, but - and then I'm like, "Yeah, okay, that's their victory song."
Evie: Stand up! For the champions --
Niamh: You know what? Whilst we're here, a shout-out to the ISU for uploading things to their Youtube channel.
Evie: Honestly, it's a godsend. We've got a lot of interviews, back catalog for a bunch of people who've competed on the Grand Prix including skaters like Kevin Aymoz, we also have one from Wang/Liu, so go the the website www.inthelopodcast.com, you can see all of the interviews there and you can read them or listen to them. And keep your eye out for some more! Thank you guys for listening, we hope to see you again for our next episode!
Kite: And we'd like to thank the research team for this episode, and our transcribing and quality control team, and of course Evie for editing, and Gabb for the gorgeous graphics.
Niamh: If you want to get in touch with us, then please feel free to contact us via our website inthelopodcast.com or on Twitter or Instagram. You can find our episodes on Youtube, iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher and Spotify.
Evie: If you enjoy the show, and want to help support the team, then please consider making a donation to us on our ko-fi page, and we’d like to give a really big shoutout to all the listeners who have contributed to our team thus far, especially Lucy who donated specifically so that I would sing the Cup of China Victory Ceremony song, I hope you were happy... I did the thing! I sang for my supper!
Kite: You can find the links to all our social media pages and our ko-fi on the website.
Niamh: If you’re listening on iTunes, please consider leaving a rating and a review if you enjoyed the show. Thanks for listening, this has been Niamh,
Kie: Kite
Evie: and Evie. See you soon guys!